Craig Groeschel - Intimidated by Your Doubt
Alli Wiseman: Well, pastor Craig, thank you so much for joining us on the "You've Heard It Said" podcast.
Craig Groeschel: Hey, happy to be with you, Alli. Thanks for doing it.
— Of course. Well, we are so excited. The series that we're in and the book that you've written, "The Benefit of Doubt", I can't wait for our life groups to talk about it, because doubt is one of those things that is really hard to talk about, but many of us struggle with it.
— Yeah, for real.
— And so as our pastor, when you're having conversations with people who are doubting, what are some of the mindsets around it that are healthy and helpful for us to have? And what are some of those that maybe we need to reframe or just get rid of?
— Yeah, so that's a good question. I think, Alli, so often, like as Christians, if we have a doubt, we often feel guilty about it. Maybe we feel ashamed and then often don't process it. And that's not healthy at all. I think one of the really important things that we can do is to kind of de-stigmatize doubt in the church and help people know that doubt is not an enemy of faith. Doubts actually can be a contributor to a growing and a stronger faith. And so if we can just kind of help people have permission to doubt well, to doubt by leaning into God instead of by doubting and running away from God, I think that we can make a lot of progress and help people see doubt as not something to be afraid of, not something to deny, but even something to embrace, and God can handle our doubts. right? So I'm really thankful, I think our church does generally a good job of not trying to have a perfect faith and not shaming people for struggling, but instead embracing them. And so I'm really thankful for that.
— Yeah. We model that well. So thank you for that.
— Yeah, thank you.
— So I like that you shared that because scripture doesn't pull any punches around doubt. Like there are people who experience it. So who are some of your favorite examples in scripture of people who doubted, and what can we learn from them?
— Well, you know, you read the Psalms and there's a lot of, like, "God, where are you? When are you gonna answer my prayer"? And then I think two of the most obvious that I relate to so much, one is Habakkuk, and he's like, "God, this isn't fair. Where are you? Why are you allowing this to happen"? And the thing I love about Habakkuk is his name. It actually means, this sounds like it's a contradictory term, but they're the same, it means to wrestle and to embrace. That's literally what it means. And so the whole time he is wrestling with God, like, "God, this isn't fair. Where are you? Why are the wicked prospering? Why is this going on"? And he's embracing God. He is not letting go. And so you see this kind of, this dual tension of I don't understand, but I'm seeking to understand. I don't like it, but I'm trying to trust you. So that's a great picture. And then in the New Testament, Thomas, it is interesting, Thomas is always kind of painted as the guy that, you know, Doubting Thomas, right? And almost like he did something really wrong. But when you see the way Jesus treated him, Jesus treated him with grace. And Jesus met Thomas in his doubt. And what's really special, you know, Thomas said, "I'm not gonna believe unless this, I gotta see the nail marks. I gotta touch you". And Jesus loved Thomas, he didn't shame him, but he gave Thomas exactly what he needed, in other words. And that's special. So, you know, I always try to tell somebody, if I'm talking to my kids or talking to a friend, if you're doubting, take your doubts to God. He'll love you through your doubts and you can wrestle and you can embrace. And he'll often give you what you need to continue to grow in your faith.
— I love that you brought up Thomas, because he does get a bad rep. But I'm like, Thomas was just honest. Aren't you glad, like you have a Thomas when you have a question?
— That's right. And Thomas wasn't there. Thomas didn't see it. He's like, "I just wanna see it". And yeah, that's not wrong. You know, there's like, if I'm gonna follow Jesus, I wanna know he is the risen Son of God. And so show me, reveal yourself to me. And so I like Thomas. I like Thomas's honesty, and I like Jesus, the way he loved and still honored Thomas, didn't shame him. And so that gives us a good model, say we can be honest before God, and we know that he'll meet us with grace.
— Yeah. I love that honesty you talked about. And that's one of my favorite things about the book and about the series, is that you are really giving us the gift of going second, because you're talking about the hard thing. And so I wondered if you could tell us about some times in your life where you've experienced some doubt and how God met you in those seasons.
— So do you want like, big one from a few years ago or more recent? Bigger, more recent?
— More recent. Yeah.
— Yeah, so I hate to even say this out loud, but like sometimes to this day, I believe with all my heart, Alli, that God hears our prayers. I believe that God is good. I believe that he's all powerful. I believe that all things are possible with God. I believe God can raise the dead, he has. I believe that he can open blind eyes. I believe he can heal cancer. I believe that he can save the most broken people. But sometimes I feel like my prayers aren't that effective. And and so like, there've been times when, you know, I've prayed and prayed and prayed for healing. And that's especially healing. And I can tell you and show you dozens of people in the church that shocked the doctors. Like, there's no other explanation, but this is a miracle. And so we've seen the miraculous power of God heal. But it seems like when I pray for people, a lot of times they don't get better. And so I kind of joke about it, it's not always a joke, like when Amy and I go in to pray with someone, sometimes I'm kind of like, almost serious, like, "Why don't you pray? Because I think you might have a little more faith for it". And so it's not that I don't have faith for God to heal, I do, and I don't doubt the power of prayer. But sometimes, and it's hard to say as a pastor, I don't wanna devastate people, but sometimes I doubt that mine is gonna be as effective as someone else in that category. And other categories, I have no doubts about prayer. Like when I'm praying for salvation, when I'm praying for God to use a message, when I'm praying for God to give some type of breakthrough, I have no doubt. When it comes to healing, because I've seen him do it and because I've seen him not do it, sometimes I have doubts that he won't do it from my prayers.
— Yeah, I mean, I can relate. I felt that way before too. So how do you deal with that? Like, when you need to pray for healing, how do you keep praying when it feels like nothing's happening?
— So it's pretty special. Amy and I do a lot of walks and we kind of, we talk like real, what I call like intimate marriage theology on our walks where we just talk openly about that. And so we had one walk, it was a really long walk where almost the whole topic was that. And I just told her, like, I said, I feel like I'm in a prayer slump, kind of like, I know I'll get through this, I know I'm gonna see God work, but I'm not. And so it was just really special to be with someone that I trust and love that didn't judge me, didn't point back, didn't preach at me, but kind of said, "I can see why I feel that way. And I felt that way before". And then it was kind of in the dialogue where I started kind of talking faith to myself. And you know, we started telling stories about when we have seen God heal, and I'm talking about crazy miracle healings. And so we started telling those stories and they started to rebuild my faith and we started to talk through the scriptures. And so it wasn't through a sermon, it wasn't through someone throwing Bible verses at me, it wasn't through someone talking down like, "You should be ashamed of yourself, pastor Craig". You know, it was just through honest dialogue that we felt the presence of God. And it kind of felt like he was leading our conversation back to faith. And what I preached about Amy is that she asked questions. She didn't try to solve the problem. She just listened. And then through it, we kind of both talked ourselves into believing more so for faith. And so we've reengaged and I've been praying really faithfully with more faith today for healing for a couple people in our lives. And just, I know God can, I believe he will. And I believe he will. And if he doesn't, I still believe.
— That's so good. I love that that relationship is what really helped to you keep going back to God. And so when our life groups are listening, there's probably people who are nervous to share how doubting... Because it feels like such a scary thing of, "What if I get judged"?
— It does.
— So for anyone listening who's maybe experiencing those doubts and they're too scared to share, what encouragement would you give them?
— Well, you know, read the Psalms, you can see that people that are like really close to God experience, those same things. And you know, hopefully we have life groups and I would just say the vast majority of our groups are gonna meet you with faith. And what you're gonna find, let's say you're in a group with eight people or something, and if you're going through some kind of faith doubt, what's interesting is they're kinda like, what I call, almost like different types of doubt. You might doubt the goodness of God. You might doubt the power of God. You might doubt the presence of God. You might doubt the Word of God at some point or whatever it is. And I could almost guarantee, in any small group, for the most part, whatever you've doubted, there's probably someone else there that has as well. And there's sometimes, if you go first, others will follow. And it is a place to be, it's a place for healing, it's a place for strength, It's a place that we don't have to be perfect. And that's the beauty of the Body of Christ. And what's great is if you're struggling in one area, then they can be a voice of hope and healing to you. And then in a whole nother area, there's someone else who's going through something that you actually can help be a part of their answer. So don't be afraid. Here's what I'd say is, everyone is giving at life root meaning. You're listening to somebody, you're praying for somebody, you're encouraging somebody, you're visiting somebody. Don't be afraid to be the one that receives.
— That's good.
— That's a part of it. You're actually blessing others by letting the minister to you. You'll not be a great part of a Jesus community if you're not receiving as well as giving. Don't be afraid to receive. Don't be afraid to hurt. Let them love you.
— That's stepping on my toes a little bit. I think about the carry each other's burdens. I'm like, "I'm great with caring your burden. Can I keep mine"?
— And I was saying, especially to our introverts, right? It's like the extroverts, they never think, they just speak, right? The introverts a lot of times don't share. It's harder for them to share the burdens. And it's more meaningful when they do, because they often don't. And I'm always blessed when someone gives me the opportunity to minister to them. And it honestly is hard for me to receive ministry. Not just 'cause I'm a pastor, but 'cause I'm, you know, I wanna be self-reliant, blah, blah, blah. I don't wanna be embarrassed and I don't wanna be weak. And so, it's a gift to others to let them minister to you. You have to receive, don't be afraid to receive.
— Yeah. That's so good. And you shared earlier with some of the helpful things that Amy did for you. So as other people in our groups are opening up, what can we do, whether it's someone in our life group, maybe a kid who's having a lot of faith doubts, what can we do to be a safe place for people to process and to help them?
— That's a great question. So what I always say is this, that in any avenue when someone's hurting, that most of us wanna be fixers, right? So you say, you know, "Here's what I'm going through". Generally I wanna say, "Well, I can help by," or "The Bible says this," or "Don't you remember," or "You said this a long time ago," you know, that kind of thing. And so I try to work hard to remind myself, listen. Don't act, just listen. And so in a it really effective ministry conversation, one of the best things we can do is just to give people a safe place to talk. And so when they tell you something, if you felt anything close to it, you can say something like, "You know, I understand how you could feel that way," or "I can understand why you would doubt, I've had doubts like that. Tell me more. And so tell me more". And so, what other questions are you asking? And how is this impacting your faith? And how do you feel when you say that? And so we're just ask... You know, typically what I try to do is, I mean, I so much want to come back with an answer, a solution all the time. And so whenever I'm doing this, I will tell myself, "Three more questions".
— That's good.
— And so when they open up, I'll say, "Okay, here's one question and then I wanna fix it", I wanna say something, and then here's another question, and here's a third. And so what I'm really doing, both, I'm giving them the gift of just space to be honest, to be vulnerable without any judgment. And then I'm also getting more information to where I'm understanding it more clearly. And if I'm truly listening, I'm feeling more empathetic. And so now I'm not at a position of, "Here I am to help you," but I'm gonna actually, "Yeah, that does really suck. And I'm super sorry you feel that way". And so you really wanna let 'em talk. And then as much as you can, you want to be in it with them. Like, "I can understand why you're going through this and I've been there, and that's really hard, isn't it"? And then just don't solve it for a minute, just sit in it. And then, depends on the situation. Sometimes you would ask if there were some things that might help, would you wanna talk about 'em? So it's like, I'm not even giving advice before they're ready or, you know, would you wanna get together tomorrow and talk about this more? And so you just don't wanna go too hard, too fast. You wanna be really sensitive to what the Spirit prompts you to do. And the Spirit may prompt you to pray in the moment, or the Spirit may prompt you to pray later on without them. But you just want to be, it's not about you being right. It's not about you helping them the way you want to help them. It's about you really caring, empathizing, listening, understanding, being in it with them, and then with wisdom, with patience, with prompting the Spirit of God, then you come in to offer help at the right time, in the right way. And in five different conversations, they'll probably, if there's not five different approaches, you probably didn't do it as well as you could have.
— That's good. Man, that's such good reminders for us. And so in the book, I really love how you talk about how these doubts and these conversations around them can strengthen our faith. So when you think about our life groups and our church, hearing this together, having these conversations, what do you hope is different about us as a result of talking about doubt?
— So it is crazy that sometimes talking about the hard things just makes it better. And so I think that just giving people permission to talk about, "I have doubted, I am doubting," I mean, even right now, just talking to you right now about my doubts and sometimes the power of prayer, for whatever reason, it just makes me wanna pray a little more faithfully, because we're just talking about it and it doesn't make me not wanna pray. It just makes me wanna, I do wanna believe in the power of God. And he does hear the cries in my heart. And so I think it's just, growing up, I had a lot of doubts and I felt like there was no safe place to talk about 'em.
Alli Wiseman: That's hard.
— In our communities, in our small group, in our life groups, if we can be that, it is a gift. And what you're gonna find on the other side of it, every person that has really close, intimate relationship with Jesus had worked through some doubts, worked through some obstacles, had some theological questions, and so doubts, that's just one kind of speed bump in your growing faith. There's gonna be other ones. Those are a part of it. And you see God's faithfulness through it. And so don't be afraid of it. Step into it, embrace it. And I think if we can realize God understands, he is not mad, he's not disappointed. I mean, his Son Jesus on the cross said, "Why have you forsaken me"? That's, I don't know, is that doubt? What is it? It's a question. He didn't understand, right? Jesus, like, "Why? Where are you? I thought you were gonna be here". And one could argue that feels like that's a question. We know it's a question. And God wasn't mad at him and Jesus asked a question of his Father, "I thought we were gonna be together forever and you had to pull back on me". He didn't get it in the moment or whatever. So that's, to me, there's beauty in that. There's intimacy, there's strength, there's honesty. And that's something I believe honors God. Hypocrisy, if there's anything that God hates, it's fake, it's hypocrisy. Be real, be honest. God will meet you there in a loving community, together you can actually all heal.
— That's incredible. Well, thank you for setting the stage for our life groups to have these conversations together. I know they're gonna have a great time. And so thank you for making the time today.
— Of course.
— And thank you for being our pastor.
— And I'll say thank you to everyone that opens up a home or meets in a restaurant or does coffee and to everyone that does join a life group, it takes a step of faith to open up to people that you may not know well. But before long, we all know like, "How in the world did I do life without these people"? It's special. And I celebrate every single leader, every single person that comes and brings their best to both give and to receive because that's what the Body of Christ is about.